just a discussion I had on a Youtube video about Anders' fate and Inquisition.
We are at the right time...and I can't really speak english in the right way, but at least better then what I was able to do one or two years ago, so I reply to a post of a person who obviously wanted Anders to be dead and punished for what he did to the poor... innocent Elthina. -_-'
Ok, ok, I'm joking. You could have your opinion of course ...just...if you found dynamite under your bed you know I didn't do it
For the ones who want to participate at the discussion here's the link and the video:
My account is Millymiumiu and the person of whom I was speaking is
anyway, I wanted to discuss with you about my reply to him.
I tried before but I wasn't able to talk about it...I think for the first time, my sentences could had have some sense and I would like you to tell me if, what I wrote is right (I mean about the language)...or at least comprehensible...
and if it is, let's talk about it if you want. maybe this time I could be able to do so with some dignity. YAY!!!
where the conversation started:
Damian Clarck: (he wrote many messages to other people but his point more or less is in those)
-Your character must of been really close to Anders to let him live. Anders was a friend of mine, but there's no way he was letting him get away with what he did.
-Meredith was ready to kill the mages, that's a far cry from what from Elthina (had to look up the name). Think back to the beginning of act 3, when Orsino and Meredith are arguing, who comes in and breaks it up? Not only that, you can tell she cares about the mages, remarking to the templar to be gentle with Orsino. And when Meredith wanted to go ahead and start locking them down in chains, what did she say? " go back to the Gallows and calm down, like a good girl."
Look she was in a tough spot, she was after all dealing with an mad woman and trying to maintain the peace. -Not necessarily; at least if we are bringing in the real world into discussion. Look at all the change Gahndi did without being violent.
-I'm curious if you share the same view as Gahndi and other great peacekeepers. Besides, Ulthina wasn't simply doing nothing. If it wasn't for her, the Right of Annulment would of been enacted months earlier. She was the only person standing in the way of Merediths mad ambitions, which was obvious the moment she died.
-You know, as much as we all recognize that the Templars could be asshole, just stop and think how many questions in DA2 we'd of avoided if there weren't any blood mages in the game.
- I brought up elsewhere that it's very likely (and the wiki does say this is true, can't remember the part though) that Ulthina prevented Meredith from enacting the Right of Annulment earlier in the game. So her being there was doing something to help the mages, but she was caught in a bad spot where she couldn't take sides. Because, in case you missed it, there was a hell of a lot of blood mages doing bad stuff in DA2.
But I'm glad you brought up the fact that she could of left. Ulthina knew her life was in danger, and yet chose to stay. I think she knew where things were heading and was trying to find a way to stop it. Besides, in the end, you get what you want. With her death, brought a war that has killed countless mages, more so than ever occurred while Ulthina was alive.
-Things got a lot worse if you recall after the death of the Viscount when she started taking over.
But the mages weren't without their nuts as well. Remember Grace? There was a real shot for mages and templars to come to a peaceful solution before Grace decided to try and kill (for me it was Carver). The only voice of reason there was a templar, Thrask. So let's not pretend here that both sides don't have their villains.
Let me put it to you another way; you think more mages died before or after the Chantry was blown up? I mean even assuming you sided with the mages (as I did), we're still talking about a lot of dead mages as a result. The Right of Tranquility, as I believed it was called, was never enacted. Otto was screwed up I'll grant you that.
- Not necessarily; at least if we are bringing in the real world into discussion. Look at all the change Gahndi did without being violent. <---(I replied to this one specifically)
Here my first reply:
I don't remember Elthina try to mediate anything. she was totally useless and she let a lot of templars abuse innocent mages for TEN years. she was guilty as well and I don't regret her death.
He reply to me:
At the very beginning of Act 3, Meredith wanted to start killing off mages, but Ulthina stepped in and desclated the situation on Orsino's part. Just look at the tone she takes with each party, Orsino she tells the templars to do it gently, and she calls Meredith a "little girl". You have to realize that the whoel issue of the mages vs templars was much bigger than Kirkwall, and Ulthina had little authority to solve the problem. By the way, there were a lot of good templars in with the bad, look at Thrask.
Here my second reply:
(it was long...probably he hate me now... :v
poor templar's lover )
(first, I ask you to excuse me. I can't speak english very well but I want to try to speak off my mind. I hope to be able to do so. ) a lot of templars? I think they are just a few. Templars abuses on mages were famous even in Thedas, you can imagine in Kirkwall.
But let's think that we can excuse the lack of justice inside the circles because some of this templars are right and correct persons...there is still the fact that anyone who born with magic is indeed considered like a criminal.
They are undressed of any right and grew with the idea of being inferior and sinners.
They are taken by their families and they can't see them anymore.
They can't love anyone, have child (or they take them away when they born) they can't have a life outside the circle...In the most of the cases at least.
and this is by itself just horrible.
But, speaking of Kirkwall, the situation is even worse.
We are talking about the worst circle ever. In command we have Elthina and Meredith.
The situation is, as we know, really tense because, here there are A LOT of bad templars. they are like this maybe because they grow up with more fear of magic of what is considered normal ..or maybe all the jerks of the world likes this place...I don't know but this is.
If this jerks, who are supposed to protect and collaborate with mages, make them feel at home, are always trying to put mages on the corner, hoping to have more excuses to make them tranquil, is logic that they are the cause of the large amount of blood mages in Kirkwall.
We have furthermore to add another thing. Kirkwall is a special place. A place where the Fade coat is very very delicate and is more easy for demons to reach mage and place. let's tell... it was so stupid create a circle right there...but...anyway...
I remember the discussion with Meredith, Elthina and Orsino you just put out and I sincerely think that it was just the minimum duty for the Grand Cleric.
She simply limited an imminent conflict and a clear murder of innocent mages.
They ARE and have to be mage protectors, and if they have to kill every mage in a circle they have to be sure they are all abomination or they will be punish by the Inquisition that born, indeed, to control templars' actions.
Elthina knew this and stopped Meredith by doing the last stupid thing.
BUT, in those ten years there where A LOT of injustices in the circle. we don't know how many where founded and correct by Elthina, but I think that the most terrible things were fixed by Hawke and this is a shame for templars order...(mages' protectors...yeah)
Thrask. I love him, and it's clear he's alone in what he believe about mages, at least in Kirkwall. If the circle were full of people like him I think things could have be different. But the truth is that there was a lot of people like Ser Alrik, or just ignorant or sadistic people who enter templars order just to feel power and threatened mages.
This was the fall of a system that could have be usefull (like that one who Thrask believed).
In the end, Elthina had the power and the duty to stop criminal act, she was the direct connection with the Chantry and the Inquisition but she chose to just watch what it was the plane of the Creator and she left story take its course.
So, Anders tried to fight with words, for ten years, but things where getting worse.
At this point I think that the mages situation is like that one of any population who suffer abuse by the wrong government/king/invaders/jailers and it's normal that the consequence is a war, with of course many deaths...otherwise it's not a war...
it's very wrong speak of Anders as a terrorist, he's not an invaders trying to conquer anything but what anyone has the right to have: the freedom to have a family and dignity. and he's not a person who terrorizes or frightens others.
He's just a fighters.
He fight with words, and when it was clear (after ten years...I would loose patience first...but I'm Italian...we fought a lot of invaders ) this was useless he have no choice but start a war that could make a change, or at least an awareness and a choose of a side (templar or mage) by any person in Thedas.
Things were stalled by to much time, no change in better, mages even more abused with the consequence of even more blood mages. It was an insane situation and I think the hurried way to reach consciousness of this problem in everybody is the way Anders chose.
It's sad and violent? Yes. Every war is like that.
There are deads and injustices like those you wanted to fight to take back your rights, but it couldn't be helped. war it's war.
I can't judge a person like Anders, because I have rights I know were gained by my grandparents with blood and fight.
But is the same for you. Your society is like that because people fought to obtain yours rights and I can assure you they took it by force. It's normal. We are Human.
If someone threaten and abuse your family or friends, maybe for years, and you found the way to change things hitting on the entire system who support your enemies, you really can be able to remain watching and just keep begging for a change that wouldn't happen?
For me, Elthina is an accomplice of those bad templars' system. And when I clearly ask help to her she ignored me.
Hawke don't make a choice to intervene In big scale, he/she was limited to change little things in the city, but If I had a choice I would have make the difference Anders did. And not for MY freedom only, but for the freedom of next generations.
Is that...I think is easy to be a good and pure person, full of principles, if you have all the rights, if you born with them, if you don't ever had to fight to just live in peace or protect your family.
well...sorry, it was long. but for me it's not easy to be sure I can express what I have to tell in this language and I admit that I really care this argument.
Most of the time I heard about people speaking of terrorism, usually american people for clear reasons...but I think they misunderstand the real meaning of this word because of the fear they have to face every day at tv news or in their lives, but this time we are not speaking of an act of terrorism, just defence for the rights.
It's more like as if we were invaded by people who tried to rip off us our right and dignity and family and we had to fight for take them back or just remain silent.
Actually we go to fight those "dangerous" country in their home...you can imagine what we are able to do if they come here to take away our freedom and our internet!
So...At the light of this true facts...I really think it's hypocritical to judge Anders' actions.
I really hope this is understandable :v
thanks for your time.